- Company Focus and Innovations: atai Life Sciences is a clinical-stage biotech company engaged in developing pharmaceuticals to address severe mental health issues using psychedelics. Christian highlighted the company's focus on reviving psychedelics for medical use, emphasizing their historical efficacy and the need to navigate modern regulatory frameworks to bring these solutions back into medical practice.
- Regulatory and Development Progress: Christian discussed atai's progress in navigating the FDA approval process for their psilocybin drug, anticipating market entry by 2025. He expressed confidence in the supportive stance of regulatory bodies towards their work, owing to the pressing need for innovative treatments in mental health care.
- Business and Market Potential: The discussion also covered the significant business potential of psychedelics in treating mental health disorders. Christian pointed out the existing high rates of treatment-resistant depression and the opioid epidemic, suggesting a substantial market for their products once approved.
- Personal Motivation and Broader Impact: Lastly, Christian shared his personal journey and motivations for founding atai, influenced by his positive experiences with psychedelics. He also expressed a broader vision for the company, which aligns with solving some of the most challenging health care problems globally through innovative treatments.
Austin Hankwitz (00:00):
I'm Austin Hankwitz, and this is After earnings, the show from Morning Brew and Stakeholder Labs that brings investors up close and personal with the executives behind the world's most interesting public companies.
Katie Perry (00:12):
Today we caught up with Christian Angermayer, who's the founder and chairman of a Thai life sciences. They are a clinical stage biotech company, a shroom stock, if you will, and they're developing solutions to solve some of the biggest mental health challenges and other problems facing society today, including the opioid epidemic. Christian told us about the trip that changed his life and he also shed light on the history of psychedelics in the US talking us through what happened in the sixties, what happened thereafter, and where we're at today.
Austin Hankwitz (00:41):
A tie is in the final stages of getting their psilocybin drug approved by the FDA and on the market now with Christian aiming for that to take place sometime in 2025. This interview was hilarious, as well as incredibly informative as someone who honestly doesn't really follow pharmaceuticals or has any perspective on the space. So let's get in the interview. Christian, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of After Earnings. Let's kick it off with first and foremost, what is a tie life sciences? What products do you all make? Why do you make those products? And who's the intended customer of your products?
Christian Angermayer (01:20):
Okay, I try to be brief. First of all, thank you so much for having me because that could already fill the whole podcast because you obviously hit the most important stuff of a company. So first of all, it ties a biotech company. That means we are developing medical drugs, pharmaceutical drugs, new ones to bring hopefully to market soon. But at the moment, all of our pipeline, all of our compounds are in clinical trials. And for the ones who are not familiar with biotech, you have to go through various stages, phase one, phase two, and phase three of so-called FDA clinical trials. And when you do that successfully, at the end you're going to have an approved drug, which then is sort of sold for whatever it's made for. What is a tie doing specifically, we are focusing on mental health, which is sort of the sad, and then hopefully at the end uplifting part because we obviously are hopefully going to solve it.
(02:20)
But the sad part of the story of a tie is that mental health has become the number one problem overall for the world, for the healthcare system, for people that it's sort of the number one disease in terms of number of patients costs for the system. So you can almost say roundabout 20 plus percent of all people globally are officially diagnosed with a mental health issue, which by the way means unfortunately that there are much more people suffering who don't come forward because also mental health is still a very stigmatized topic and it's not like, I dunno, cancer, whatever people regularly seek out help, a lot of people suffer in anonymity. So that's what we want to solve. So what is our cool claim to fame? We were the first one, and this is why by far we are now the most important and biggest one to have the idea to bring back.
(03:18)
So-called psychedelics into the medical world. What does that mean? Or why do I use that bring back? Because some of these, so-called psychedelics like magic mushrooms, which the active ingredient is called psilocybin, LSD, ketamine, some of these compounds had been medically used in the last century actually for mental health issues. And then for a pure political scam, I think one of the darkest and most evil things the US government has ever done on the Nixon, they used the fact that hippies did actually, especially LSD and magic mushrooms outside the medical framework. So technically it was illegal because it was back then also a drug which had to be consumed in a hospital. So the hippies kind of did it ly outside the hospital. But to be fair, and we can talk about that looking back, the hippies did the good stuff, like the better stuff than alcohol or whatever.
(04:16)
And it also explains a lot where love, peace and happiness and all of the hippies sort of movement ingredients came from. But the Nixon governments used it against them and said, oh, look at those hippies. They take psychedelics. This is bad because it must be bad because look, they go against our beloved President Nixon. And in order to show that they made psychedelics really broadly illegal and practically think about that, they took away a very good medication from patients who needed it. However, back then mental health was a nichey problem. While now it's totally different topic. Why is that, by the way, why is mental health issues going through the roof? But now mental health is sort of, as I said, the number one problem of our time. So our core idea in 2018 when we started a time, and I was actually thinking about it since 2017, sorry, two 14 was there are these compounds, which by the way now this is to every retail investor, which really makes us different to any other biotech company.
(05:23)
We know these compounds work because they had been used in the last century as a medication, so why shouldn't they not work now? So our idea was let's bring them back, let's redo the data because obviously the FDA said, look, you need to sort do modern clinical trials, whatever. So we practically redoing all the evidence and obviously legal disclaimer, I have to say there could be surprising stuff, but why should there be? We are redoing clinical trials which have been wildly successful in the last century. And by the way, again, and then these compounds partly were used for 10 years plus before they became illegal. So we bringing back these psychedelics into the medical world. As a side note, Dennis, stop. But because I'm very, very passionate and they also, I'm very open.
Austin Hankwitz (06:16):
We can tell, man, we love it. This is awesome. And you're being interviewed, by the way, by outsiders. I don't know much about psychedelics. I'm learning alongside Katie right now, so I'm really eager to dive into this stuff. So I appreciate the thorough walkthrough.
Christian Angermayer (06:31):
Yeah, and before you go off this podcast and say, oh my God, this sounds also amazing, I might try psychedelics. I want to say one thing, I came to this business, no, I'm very open again, I love it. I came to this business idea because I had a psychedelic trip with mushrooms in 2014, which completely changed my life and I was the most unlikely person to do that because I was actually always very proud. I'm coming from Germany and Bavaria people know Bavaria because of Theto Fest, and I have never ever tried alcohol in my whole life. Yeah, I've never tried a cigarette, I've never tried weed, I've never tried cocaine. I had done nothing and a very long story for a separate podcast really. Friends convinced me over two years to try mushrooms and I was like, no, I don't need it. I was always, I really credit my parents.
(07:23)
I was always had two things. I don't think I'm dumb and I'm a very happy person. So I was like, I don't need it. Because the friends were telling me, look at the data doing biotech. That's what my background is. So the friends were telling me, look at the data of the fifties. These things can cure depression. I was like, but I am not depressive. I don't need anything. Long story. I tried it and it was hands down the single most meaningful experience and added value experience I had in my entire life. And I came out of this trip and was like, holy shit, if it's doing this amount of add-on positivity, to me as a happy, healthy person, I can totally see how it has the potential to cure mental health issues like depression, anxiety, addiction. And there was sort of the story of a tie again. And then as an entrepreneur, I have the big conviction to just redoing this stuff. So why shouldn't it work this time? And we solving one of the biggest problems, maybe the biggest problem of the healthcare system right now. So that is in one sentence, the huge opportunity of a type.
Katie Perry (08:32):
Yeah. When we talk about the big opportunity, I'm curious what the prevailing theory is on the rapid rise of mental health issues in this country and elsewhere. Do you think it's attributable to more people being aware of these things and some of the stigma being removed? Or is it there's something going on in the world in society that it's actually creating more problems?
Christian Angermayer (08:56):
Both. So I think it's two things. I think yes, one definitely factor, and by the way, which hasn't fully played out, that means the numbers will just go up, is that luckily that's a good thing that we destigmatize mental health. So people come forward, celebrities come forward, talk about it, and that makes normal people more open to seek help. And that's definitely one reason that it was kind of more stigmatized in the decades before. But the second short version is, and I can elaborate if we have that. I deeply believe that the world we're building, and by the way, my background is I'm running my investment firm and building companies in tech and biotech. So I'm sort of part of the problem and part of the solution. I deeply believe that the world we're building, which you and I maybe love with tech and our phones and room and we can do this podcast or whatever is amazing, but it's at the same time seems to be very detrimental for our mental health. And so I think we need an antidote. So I think that one of the reasons why we are successful in what we're doing is that the world, all stakeholders, the regulators, the politicians, the patients, the doctors, they all remembered there was something which seems to give our mind, maybe you could even use it preventatively by the way in the future, sort of the supported needs in the world, which is very detrimental for our mental health.
Katie Perry (10:26):
That's interesting. So basically what you're saying is it's not about reverting to the past with being less online, less on our phones using less tech. It's about building alongside that innovation. The anecdote
Christian Angermayer (10:38):
Say yes, I would say I'm just thinking we like on a business podcast, but if I want to be, and I know some people might find it cheesy. So my theory, and by the way, there's one effect and we talk about, so psychedelics are inherently kind of spiritual, so so part of the healing process is a deep spiritual mystical experience. So it's very hard to talk about psychedelics without touching of the drum, but my theory about mental health is the following. So we have an immune system in our body which helps us when we have to fight viruses, bacteria, whatever to overcome it. And I deeply believe we have an immune system for our brain as well, which consists of three factors. One is faith, the belief in something doesn't need to be an organized religion, but the belief that there is something bigger than life itself.
(11:33)
And why? Because we all deeply terrified of dying ourselves and even more of your loved ones dying, you have maybe family, children, parents for sure, and you are afraid that something could happen to them. And that is sort of a nagging pain and nagging trauma. And by the way, we also forgot in the western world, or even worse, we pushed out that to talk about that I think. And by that we make it even worse. So faith is one thing, which is I think part of our immune system. The second part of our immune system is purpose. Humans want to be part of something, want to be needed, want to know why they're here. And the third part, maybe the most cheesy part of it is love. We are social animals. We want to have family, close family and friends. And if you look in again, especially the western world, all these three components of our immune system are actually on the decline.
(12:30)
Face is on the decline because we kind of pushed it out by science. While I personally think face and science are not at war with each other at all, but less and less people are religious, spiritual then very important right now it's happening every day more as we speak. Purpose is on the decline because people start realizing in a way built or functioning with AI and robots. What am I doing? Everybody who drives a car for a living, by the way, more than I think 20% of all Americans, the job is related to driving a car. It's not going to exist in three years, four years from now, every worker in a factory, it's not going to exist. The robot's going to do it. So I think by the way, I'm an optimist, I think they're going to be new jobs, but for the moment this is frightening people deeply because their purpose is evaporating in front of the very eyes.
(13:25)
And then the worst we actually doing, we kind of destroying traditional models of love like families, schools, whatever, where people usually found their strongholds. So practically all the three pillars of our mental health immune system in my view based purpose and love are on the decline. What do psychedelics give you? That is the interesting part. They actually give you exactly that. There is almost no one who comes out of a clinical trial with psychedelics and didn't have a kind of spiritual experience. One of the very common effects is that people come out of a psychedelic trip and really positively realize what do they want to do in life? And by the way, it sounds so simple, but reading all these thousands of people we treating in clinical trials, it's astonishing how little people know about themselves, what makes them happy, what's their purpose, what they want to do, and that you realize in a psychedelic trip.
(14:26)
And then the third one, almost everybody including myself, came out of a psychedelic trip and says, love is the most important thing. I know it's super cheesy, but you start cherishing relationships and you see that this is actually what is the essence I believe, of our life. And that is why psychedelics I think have these power now coming back to the business in an unheard way, the data we are producing shows that with success rates of more than 50% for treatment resistant depression, partly by the way we have one trial going on with ibogaine against heroin addiction. Opioid addiction, the success rate is partly more than 90% in previous trials.
Katie Perry (15:12):
Christine, can we dig into that one a little bit? Because when Austin and I were chatting earlier, we were both kind of like, this seems like a huge opportunity in this country, not just to help a lot of people, but just from a business standpoint. And we were wondering if in your workings with regulatory bodies and the FDA, is there more openness from those bodies to be collaborative with you and give you guys some room given that the problem that you strive to help solve is so big in this country and only getting bigger?
Christian Angermayer (15:50):
A hundred percent. By the way, the regulators are extremely constructive. This is not, people always think like, oh, because of psychedelics, I know the opposite. I big Charlotte to regulate. It's like, look, because by the way, and that is the disclaimer, sorry, I forgot to say because we did one important decision, which not just for business reasons, but I deeply believe in psychedelics are medical products. So whoever hears me speaking now and is like, oh my god, this sounds amazing. Don't do it on your own. First of all, it's technically still illegal, but psychedelics are then the most powerful and that's how all of our trials are designed if they're taken with a therapist together. So this is not to be taken alone and even not to be taken with a therapist standalone. So what we are developing is a framework where people who have mental health issues get therapy and then as part of their therapy really little in the middle they have a psychedelic session with their therapist.
(16:53)
And that together therapy plus the psychedelic experience under the guidance of therapist is yielding that enormous success. So that is just one very important point because people are like, oh my god, yeah, sure, try to tomorrow it's important to do it with a guide in the legal framework and that's what we're developing. And in this sort of setting, the regulators are extremely supportive because by the way, because again, I can always make the data of the last century is sort of showing it. And then we have these enormous needs and we are doing it very carefully. We're doing it very compliant. We are producing rigorous clinical data so that we can once and for all prove it that these therapies deserve to be part of our healthcare system.
Austin Hankwitz (17:44):
So what's the current state of that regulation process? I mean, what are you guys doing? Build awareness for lawmakers, educate them. How are you guys really trying to get this across the finish line? Where are you guys in that race?
Christian Angermayer (17:58):
Good question because we don't need to do anything with lawmakers because it's not a political decision. It's not cannabis. We don't try to change any laws. What we trying to do is produce the clinical data, by the way you do it for any other biotech company, for any other disease. And then if we produce the clinical data in phase three, which we supposed I'm very confident to do, and by the way again in all the stages before we've produced it, then it's an automatism that the FDA, not a politician, the FDA as a regulator will say the data is that good. It's doing what's supposed to do. Yeah, we've considered everything, we're going to approve the drug. So it's not a political decision again, because we don't want to legalize it. It's not cannabis. It's bringing a drug back into the hospitals where these drugs belong.
Austin Hankwitz (18:50):
That makes sense, that makes a lot of sense. And so you guys walk through the different programs that you guys are working on right now and maybe where you all are in getting those passed by the FDA, I mean are we talking about next month, next year by the end of 2030? Lay out for our listeners where you are in that process and the different types of specific drugs you guys are trying to prove the efficacy of.
Christian Angermayer (19:16):
Okay, so first of all, a little bit of shameless marketing. If somebody wants to look it up, go to our website, which is at Tai life, at AI life. And if you go on programs, then you see all of our clinical programs for the various psychedelics. So the most advanced one is in a subsidiary, which we actually span out, which is called, it's a separate company, but we still the largest shareholder. It's called Compass Pathways. So Compass is solely focusing on psilocybin, which is the active ingredient in, so-called magic mushrooms and compass is as we speak, finishing its phase three, actually two legs. So one leg will read out towards the end of the year, the other one early next year. So if everything goes as we all think it goes, that means psilocybin should be approved mid next year and being rolled out into the healthcare system. So we talking about for biotech terms, we're talking about very, very near term. So practically right before approval. And by the way, phase two B, the last study was phenomenally successful. Yeah, so I would say the likelihoods of a successful phase three is very, very hard.
Austin Hankwitz (20:38):
Gotcha. Okay. So the, can we go
Katie Perry (20:40):
Over the stages real quick? Just because I feel like not a lot of people are familiar. Stage three, if you pass that point, stage four clinical trials, it's already in the market and you're still testing, right? So the hurdle you need to, no,
Christian Angermayer (20:54):
Stage four almost doesn't exist. You have stage, it's very simplified. It's the following phase one. Normally you focus on showing if there are side effects. So a phase one study, that's the earliest clinic. So you have a lot of preclinical work, but that's generally, by the way, we didn't need to do preclinical work for psychedelics because we didn't know already. We did already know so much about it. But in generally for any biotech company, there is two big thing. There's preclinical, this means you're in animals, you're still figuring science out. And then once you go into humans, you have these three phases, simplified, phase one, phase two, and phase three. And very simplified said it's the following. Phase one is focusing on side effects. So you're making sure that the drug hopefully doesn't have a lot of side effect. And if they have, you want to know which one.
(21:50)
Phase two is focusing more on the efficacy. So in phase two you're trying to really show is the drug doing what it's supposed to do? And with which likelihood, by the way, that's when compass for example with psilocybin showed that with, oh, I should know the number but please look it up because obviously I need to say the right number, but it was more than 50% success rate. I think it was higher in phase two B, compass has proven that psilocybin is curing treatment-resistant depression. And then comes sort of the phase three, which is kind of another phase two, just bigger where the F FDA A says and now wants more with more people.
(22:36)
Got it. Because obviously statist significance, whatever, but kind, if you ask me after phase two B, you already know a lot. So the most important stage normally for investors also to watch is phase two B, because the phase two B data tell you does it work, dah, dah. And then phase three is kind of, I don't want to say repetitive because obviously you gain more insights doing it with some hundred people instead of 50 people. But normally it depends a little bit on the drug. I want simplifying here, but normally you already know where it's going. So in after phase three, if the data is good, comes the approval.
Austin Hankwitz (23:21):
Got it. So let's say we fast forward the calendars by 12 to 18 months and let's say by Q3 or Q4, phase three for the psilocybins wrapped up FDA approves it, we're off to the races. How should retail investors be thinking about your company now that you have a product on the market? For example, I think back in 2019, Johnson and Johnson had a product past called spr Vato, which is sort of like a ketamine nasal spray. And now they're doing nearly a billion a year in sales only five years later, right? So that's awesome for them. I mean are you guys hoping to see the same ramp up in sales? How are you guys thinking about that? I think it's going to be better once the product goes live. Oh, you think it's better than, okay, let's talk about it.
Christian Angermayer (24:05):
It was actually for a while, and I don't want to criticize jj, but what happened is, so for the background of the viewers or listeners, Sorato is a version of ketamine and some people count ketamine as a psychedelic, some not. And I would always say it's a semis psychedelic because you have kind of an experience, but it's not as deep, but it has very good effects on you. So I'm a big fan of ketamine, but what is the same of Spro or the scientific term S ketamine compared to all the other psychedelics we are doing is that it has to be taken with a doctor. So it's the same sort of treatment framework. And by the way, it's in mental health, it's the first time that this framework comes sort of to Titian in terms of that you have to do something with your doctor.
(25:14)
People in mental health know, oh, you take Xanax, whatever, you take some pills at home. By the way, side note what I'm saying now, that maybe one of the main reasons why I believe a T stock is way too undervalued because people still have that sort of what I say now, that Sato fear almost because when Sato came to the market, it took actually a while. You say now, oh, it's making what is like a billion or whatever after five years. But actually the expectations originally were higher. Quicker. Why was that? Because what we said before, the problem is so big that analysts at the beginning said, well, this should, and by the way, s provato works, Sato is a great drug, but what my interpretation is that in an organization like j and j, which A is not doing so much mental health at all, but didn't have any understanding and also sometimes you have to have access and really understand something they normally do cancer, drugs, whatever.
(26:15)
They do the normal model of a pharma company selling drugs via a pharmacy. You take it home, you pop a pill day. So this is different. Again, you have to go to your therapist, you do therapy, and it's part of that. And I think that again, I'm happy to change they did it at all, but I think they didn't at the beginning really know how to handle that, how to push it out, whatever. So actually people were disappointed with Sava, but now they see it's really going through the roof because it was almost by word of mouth. But I think j and j didn't do a great sales job.
Austin Hankwitz (26:58):
You kind of bringing that back to you guys. Talk to me about what your strategy is then. So when you do get approved, how are you going to learn from the mistakes of Johnson Johnson and really have that awesome go-to-market strategy?
Christian Angermayer (27:09):
Well first of all, we are doing nothing else than psychedelics. And as you might see, I'm really, really passionate about it and I think psychedelics will in a true way change the world in a very good because again, they have the potential to cure the biggest problem. And if you think about that, how much mental health, not just for the individual patient, how much is destroying families, whatever, it's almost like, so I really think we have a sort of a mission. I believe in it and that's why we completely focus on it. So that's already the big difference to j and j where spr Vato was from their point of view, a nichey drug nobody really took care of. Then the second one is a little bit like it's actually not so bad to follow j and j because now actually all the therapists and doctors are used to that framework.
(27:59)
So give it to j and j. They pioneered sort of what we call the two hour window framework for hey, you go to your therapist, you do a session and then you can go home. So it's kind of already a little bit more established. The most important thing though, and just need to say it in a compliant way. So I have seen over the last seven, eight years since I'm sort of working on a tie, I have seen roundabout 50 personal friends. By the way, it's very sad and interesting once you work in the topic of mental health, how many people open up talking about what we said before about stigmatizing and say, Christian, can I talk to you? I actually have depression by the way. You don't see that people can live with it, they can hide it, they can function, whatever. So I had drawn about 50 friends over the last eight years plus who opened up to me about their mental health struggles and to then have actually, because there are countries where you can do it in Europe, in the Netherlands and in Mexico where there are very few countries globally where psychedelics are not criminalized.
(29:16)
We're going to change it now in the western world. So people were trying, if they had the money, whatever, to go there and seek help. So I've seen that not just in our clinical trials but really firsthand in friends of mine who got help by psychedelics and what is the two things as an outcome. The one is really almost all or all of them got help. Not everybody got a hundred percent cured, but I can really say all of them got either cured or got significantly better, which is by the way unheard of for any group of medications, but equally interesting, literally all of them. I've never met a single person which has been personally helped by psychedelics in one way or the other. Look at me, who doesn't want to talk about it? Because it's such an inherently good and positive experience that you come out of it and you want your friends, family, maybe the world experience it. So I came out of it of my first trip and as kind of a consequence of my first trip and some others I did, I ultimately started a tie and I'm here with you on the podcast to talk about what I think is one of the most important developments in healthcare at the moment. But not everybody wants to go to the world, but at least they talk to their friends and family why this is so important. Totally.
Austin Hankwitz (30:47):
This is maybe, and speaking of talking about it, I know we've only got 15 more minutes with you here, so let's move into the
Christian Angermayer (30:52):
Section because financially this is the biggest grassroot booster you can have for a product. Think about it. We have a product coming to market where everybody who uses the product will tell their friends and family. By the way, it is already happening. Meaning you said you live in Austin, go to a dinner. I bet that every second dinner people talk already about psychedelics. You can go on Netflix by the way, because I know we have a lot of time whoever wants to learn more how they work. There is an anti Netflix show about our work, which is called How to Change Your Mind or Read the book, what I want to say. Since Braava, the pressure of society and sort of the society is eagerly awaiting psychedelics, which I think and expect once psilocybin is coming to market. And then the other psychedelics you find on our website, we are going to kill it in sales and that is definitely not priced into the stock.
Katie Perry (31:52):
So let's get into some of those numbers. But real quick before we dive into earnings, you said you were going to be transparent. I have a question, one phrase response. Which current world leader would you wish to have this experience if they
Christian Angermayer (32:08):
Could a hundred percent Putin and Zelensky together on MDMA would change the world together. Yes, MDMA is a drug which people should do together if they have a conflict.
Katie Perry (32:18):
Interesting. Well, okay, maybe that'll happen someday. We'll see.
Austin Hankwitz (32:22):
I am rooting for psychedelics to change the world and for it to change the world. We though got to jump into the earnings section of the podcast. Ron, we've only got 10 minutes left with you here man, but we do have a couple more questions with the first one being obviously revenue is not the main focus for a company like you guys right now in clinical trials and sort of in this clinical stage. So what is the focus, right? Are you guys, as the retail investors looking at your earnings, what should they be looking at? Is it clinical updates, is it cash position? I mean what should they be looking at as they analyze your earnings every single quarter?
Christian Angermayer (32:59):
So as I say, so we are not producing revenues yet. That will happen once we have the first approved drugs. So you look the most important one is obviously the clinical updates. Where are the various compounds we have in trials? And then looking forward, what is the probability of success? Hint, because they all have been medically used already. I think the probability of success is very high. Second, do we have the cash to do all the work we want to do? And that's high, has a very solid cash position. So we are very well financed so that these are the two big numbers, clinical updates and cash position. And then looking forward, what are the catalysts coming? And as I said, so psilocybin going to have the first phase three readout end of the year. We are going to have a very big readout for one of my favorite drugs. Five M-E-O-D-M-T. Yeah, mid of the year. So again, if you go on the entire website, but these are the two big catalysts and then several smaller ones, that's maybe the third one. What's next? What's coming in the next quarter?
Austin Hankwitz (34:04):
That makes a ton of sense. And so what you're saying is cash positions looking juicy for a tie, nothing to worry about there. We've also got some really cool momentum from the psilocybin side of the equation. So revenue is around the corner in the coming, let's call it 12 to 18 months. So for the retail investor listening right now who's trying to analyze this company and understand what the next 12 to 18 months look like on the surface looks pretty healthy,
Christian Angermayer (34:28):
Very, by the way I'm most of can say that and I think the main come back, the main reason why is a tie valued, I think too low, comparably low. The one is in general as the ones of the listeners who do biotech or invested in biotech, no biotech went through two years of shit. So the last two years were not pretty for biotech in general, but at ties up much more than the market. Why? Because in times when markets go down, investors are afraid of novelty. Actually in times when markets go up, they love it. So we are a novel paradigm. Again, we are not the cookie cutter take one pill per day and I'm very proud of that because we curing it. We don't want to make people dependent on any Xanax or whatever. We really changing in a very positive way the way how we treat mental health issues.
(35:23)
But in times like that for biotech has nothing to do with a tie just in the market we are. People don't appreciate that novelty. They're like, you know what? Especially institution investors. Let me buy another cardiovascular company where I exactly know the paradigm it's going to change. I think by the way, I think biotech as an asset class is one of the biggest opportunities because once interest rates come down, biotech is extremely interest rate sensitive. Biotech blew up and then suddenly novelty becomes an asset again. So you see that already every day by the way, in days biotech went down, a Taiwan went down more. But in days biotech goes up, a tie goes up more. A tie is just like a sort of turbo or at least one part of a tie is a turbo in the biotech market. And the other thing is, again, analysts are two in my point of view, conservative on the expectations of sales once psilocybin is on the market, once the other drugs are on the market because they're using this provato rollup and as I tell before, I think we're going to do it much better than j and j, but the market is also much more ready back then as it was back then when j and j brought S bravado to market.
(36:25)
So these are the two biggest reasons by the way. The third one is again another shameless promotion. If people google my name, which they should see somewhere here. Yeah, Christian, I have a substack where I wrote a very long blog post about a tie or what we discussed and you have more details like why I really believe and I'm yes disclaimer, I'm talking my own book, I'm the founder, but I've been never more convinced of something than of psychedelics. And I think aside of helping people, it is really the stock at high is one of the biggest investment opportunities in the market right now in general, but especially in biotech. So go on my substack, then you can get the full reach written down.
Austin Hankwitz (37:13):
I love it. Thank you so much for the breakdown. I know we've only got about five or four minutes left here with you, so want to ask a couple questions about just more on the personal side. You talk a lot about longevity and anti-aging. Where does this come from? I obviously want to live as long as I possibly can, but I'm also comfortable with the idea of dying when I'm older. So share with us your perspective about anti-aging and what you're doing today to stay youthful.
Christian Angermayer (37:41):
So first of all, by the way, we should just do a second podcast. I love this are my favorite topic. We can, well again, by the way, together with aai, what is the one thing every human being wants? We might be so different, but the one thing every human being wants where we all the same, we want to be happy and we want to be healthy. We will not find a person who doesn't want to be happy and healthy. And once you happy and healthy, you want to live as long as possible. So by the way, this is coming back to a tie why I think the opportunity is so big. Because what we truly do with psychedelics, we making people happy again if they're not happy at the moment. But ultimately that's another point I talk a lot in my substack is by the way, I think the market analysis is completely wrong because it's just looking for psychedelics at people who have depression, anxiety, addiction, which is obviously the ones who need it the most.
(38:36)
But everybody who's listening right now, if I would ask you, are you truly deeply happy every day or do you want a little bit of a more, and by the way, profound, long lasting kind of spiritual happiness, who would say no? So I think over the years, not just people with depression, anxiety, addiction, whatever, will seek therapy with psychedelics, but people who take it preventatively, as I said before, we live in a very, very exhausting time for our mental health. So why wait till you're depressive? Why not saying once a year I have therapy with psychedelics to make sure I'm not getting depressive in the first place. So I think the market as in tech, it's such a normal word, total addressable market. The total addressable market for psychedelics is truly a hundred percent of the world population and so is for longevity. Nobody of us wants to age by the way.
(39:32)
We kind of normalized aging and we say, yeah, you get wiser. Yeah, what the fuck? I want to get wiser, but I don't want to have the decay of my body. And by the way, I deeply believe that aging is a disease. It's actually not a single one, it's much more complex. So a colleague of mine in another company I'm very proud of, he actually defined the term hallmarks of aging. So he really was the one who in 2012 said, Hey, we get it all until 2012 ish. People were looking for these one sort of key which starts and stops aging. And Manu Serrano is his name, said, no, no, we get it all wrong. There is not a single disease called aging, but there are 12 hallmarks of aging. So 12 diseases which happen the older we get stem cell exhaustion, metabolic dysfunction, whatever, and they together form the picture of what we call aging. But suddenly people like I, that's when I thought I started thinking about it, I was like, wait a moment. But these 12 hallmarks of aging, they are tangible, they are treatable. So the assumption is if we are able to solve and cure these 12 hallmarks of aging, then we will slow down and even reverse aging as we know it and sort of a will extend lifespan. So we are going to get much older, but especially So then
Austin Hankwitz (41:00):
What are you doing today to stay youthful, right? What are you doing today specifically to kind of push back on those 12 hallmarks of aging?
Christian Angermayer (41:09):
So at the very moment there is not a lot of therapeutics you can take because that's what two other companies of mine Rejuven and Canberran are doing. They're developing novel therapeutics for fighting these hallmarks of aging. However, there are five things which everybody can do and which by the way are extremely important. It's not like they are for now. I can hopefully we really bring cutting edge solution in the future, but for now it's five things. The one is sleep. If you don't sleep well and enough, it's really bad. And by the way, sleep is the only thing we know which is really rejuvenating us and which a lot of us are deliberately cutting short. It's really, so I always, when people talk to me and say, Hey, what can I take? I was like, if you don't sleep well, don't even ask me. Or if you don't sleep enough, give yourself the time, the sleep hygiene, whatever.
(42:01)
Second is what I said before, but it is one of the most defining factors for aging and our life expectancy, social relations, you need to have close friends and family cherish them. People who are lonely in average die seven years earlier than the same peers who have strong social relations, which is maybe one of the most, if not the most defining factor for life expectancy. Third is food, Mediterranean diet, not a lot of carbs, not a lot of sugar. Id non-sugar, more fish than meat. Fourth one, very important, no drugs. And you might say now after this call, but psychedelics are therapeutics. The drugs we consume every day recreationally are the worst and especially the number one killer and bad thing is alcohol. People are not aware how scientifically bad alcohol is. No alcohol ever. I've still not tried and I have no intention to do so. I have no cigarettes, whatever. Fourth is sports or fifth is sport. You need to have three, four times a week exercise, post cardio and muscle. These five things together regularly done with consistency will make a considerable difference about your aging.
Austin Hankwitz (43:26):
I love it. Thank you so much for breaking that down for us.
Katie Perry (43:29):
And I feel like we going to have a whole other podcast on that topic that we talked
Christian Angermayer (43:33):
About. Let's do a longevity podcast.
Katie Perry (43:34):
On what?
Christian Angermayer (43:36):
On longevity. Let's do one on longevity.
Katie Perry (43:37):
I have so many questions, but we don't have time right now, but thank you so much. This is so interesting and it was also helpful to hear how the longevity piece of what you're pursuing is tying back into the discussion around a tie and how those two things are working together. So really
Christian Angermayer (43:54):
Appreciate because why would you want to live long if you're not happy? By the way, again, this is so the core of what we are, and by the way, if people take one thing away of this podcasts, two things. I really believe that T is a generational investment opportunity, but on the personal side, being happy and healthy and then loving other people and giving other people love is all what life is about. And then everything else is like, but these are the core pillars and that Thai is giving us a really solid boost for that.
Austin Hankwitz (44:26):
I love it man. Thanks so much for joining us on this episode of After Earnings.
Christian Angermayer (44:30):
Thank for having me. Let's do one more.
Katie Perry (44:33):
Alright, Austin, our first biotech guest and we got off to a strong start with a Shroom stock. What stood out to you from this interview?
Austin Hankwitz (44:41):
Yeah, Christian, what a great guy. What an awesome storyteller. I think my biggest takeaway here was his optimism regarding his new product hitting the markets spr Vato is doing almost a billion a year right now in revenue and only a few short years since they launched in 2019. And if Christian is able to get his drug to market faster than Proctor and Gamble, then that's really exciting. There's a lot of reasons to be excited about that for sure as an investor. So I'm definitely going to keep tabs on them over the coming months and years, a hundred percent.
Katie Perry (45:13):
And for me, this was the first time I was face-to-face with a biohacker longevity person. And I got to say, I think I judged a little bit coming into it. I'm personally here for a good time, not a long time, but he made some really compelling points. And what I thought was really interesting is how he layered this philosophical perspective he has on life with the science that he's building at a tie. And it was interesting to hear those two things coming together. I was also surprised to hear how closely companies like a tie are working with regulators, so government agencies, other players working alongside Shroom stocks to solve some of society's biggest problems.
Austin Hankwitz (45:52):
I was equally as surprised about that I did not think that these regulators were so eager and hungry to find solutions despite these solutions being recreationally illegal. So it's super cool to see that society has transformed a bit to be a little bit more accommodating. With
Katie Perry (46:10):
That being said, I'm Katie Perry
Austin Hankwitz (46:12):
And I'm Austin Hank,
Katie Perry (46:14):
And this was the After Earnings podcast brought to you by Morning Brew and Stakeholder Labs.
Austin Hankwitz (46:19):
Be sure to subscribe and share this episode with a friend that knows a little bit too much about Shrooms. We'll see you on our next episode.
